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  1. RL

    RL Limited User

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    Pulled this off of the Bytown site

    It's said things are not looking good and the next meeting is May 13th

    But you all can fill out this survey http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=903881851478

    Bottom line is to get them off this old growth format and to maintain Silviculture practises (logging) pest disease controls as well as recreation opportunities.
    If man does not manage the forest Mother nature will burn it in the end. I'm sure residents in the area would not like that.

    Old growth should only include forests that have not been touched by mankind EVER and in NO way should include plantations of any kind nor age!!

    Next to Skytop (East side) the owners there said they would never log. Guess what, the pests killed the trees and now its been clear cut...what a mess. If only they logged it regularly the trees would have been better apt to survive as at Skytop. :?



    As quoted on the Bytown site: http://bytown-motorcycle-assoc.ca/bytow ... c.php?t=52

    "I have it from an inside source that things are not very good on the Limerick Forest front.
    The Ecology group want to segregate the forest. We do not want this as they are not going to let us on the sections that we use. Also we do not support the "Old Growth" theory as this will cause the loss of trails.
    We need to form a united front and rally together to help keep our trails open.
    There is a survey that you can do to have your say in what you want done with Limerick.
    There is another meeting on May 13th, i'm not exactly sure where the meeting, is as the RoeBuck Hall is not available.I will post the where- abouts as soon as I know.
    I can not stress enough how important it is to have as many people as possible at the meeting.If we do not have enough people at the meeting we will lose the right to ride.
    You will have to register with Sue.Willis@uclg.on.ca for the meeting"
  2. amuzme

    amuzme Limited User

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    Thanks for starting this one Richard. I have been swamped with follow-ups and the recent Northumberland Situattion.

    Just a quick note that the OFTR has joined the LFAC and I will be speaking at the Recreation Workshop in May to present the health and social benefits of trails and shared-use.

    I have been working with Kevin Eastman on this and he is using some of our research.


    K
  3. Neil Edmunds

    Neil Edmunds ODSC Executive

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    Survey done!
  4. RL

    RL Limited User

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  5. BillO

    BillO Limited User

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    I've never been to Limerick Forest. Is it a monoculture re-plant (basically a single species)? If so, it is in very, very great danger of being ruined by pests or disease.

    BTW, no forest has ever returned to its old-growth condition in recorded history. Best estimates for this in boreal forests is about 2000 years. Carolinian would take more like 4000. Some cannot ever return, as the conditions that created them no longer exist. Witness the Middle East whose lush hardwood forests were destroyed between 4000 and 2500 years ago. Witness also the Amazon basin and other areas in South America and Africa. These forests cannot return given current climatic conditions. We’ll need another ice age.

    These sorts of things are understood by real environmentalists. The kinds of folks we are talking about here, let’s call them ‘Greenie Weenies’, are not real environmentalists. They think they are, but they don’t have a clue and are ill equipped to get one. They just like having the Bambis and Thumpers around but don’t have any idea what that entails. They read unsupported and sensationalized spooge in newspapers and ‘nature nazi’ rags and consider themselves educated. Clueless dopes!

    In another life, I’m a nature photographer and I spent an early career working for the Ontario Ministry of the Environment. Through these endeavours I’ve come across so many of these fools I want to puke.

    Just a warning here – they believe they are right and no amount of reason or science can convince them otherwise – that is the kind of person that takes up these ill conceived crusades. YOU WILL NEVER CONVINCE THEM THEY ARE WRONG!!!!!! I’ve tried for years.

    Hey, but that doesn’t mean we can’t fight them.

    Sorry for the rant, but --- “If you knew Greenie Weenie like I know Greenie Weenie, oh, oh, oh what a dope!”
  6. BillO

    BillO Limited User

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    Okay, I filled out the survey. Here is how I responded to the comment sections.

    1.
    It is critically important for you to ensure that any areas designated for ‘Old Growth’ management status have an acceptable diversity of tree species. If any of these areas can in any way be considered to be composed of essentially one species, then there is a high risk that such areas will fall prey to disease or pests.

    Also essential is consideration for the age of the trees. If all the trees in an area of consideration are predominantly the same age, they will all begin dying off at essentially the same time. The results can be disastrous.

    Based on these considerations then, before an area can be considered for ‘Old Growth’ status you must continue selective logging of the area until both the diversity of tree species and the age profile of those trees match what would be considered normal for a natural original growth forest in that region and for that land type.

    2.
    As stated in the previous section (1) above, before an area can be considered for ‘Old Growth’ status you must continue selective logging of the area until both the profile of tree species and the age profile of those trees match what would be considered normal for a natural, original growth forest in that region and for the specific land type.

    3. & 4.
    Policy 1 – As long as my concerns in the previous section were fully addressed. Unless the conditions of species diversity and tree age profiles are met, this concept of ‘Old Growth’ will fail. The policy needs to be amended accordingly.

    Policy 3 – This is non-sense. Single track, natural surface trails, such as those used by wildlife, and by humans for walking, dirt biking, cross-country skiing, cycling, etc. have essentially zero environmental impact and can only add to the public’s enjoyment of the forest. The health and recreational benefits alone that can be derived from low density single track trails will more than make up for the minimal cost to build and maintain such trails. Remember, trails have been an integral part of forests since there were animals on the planet. This policy needs to be removed.

    Policy 4 – Provided that such an assessment is exercised to determine the best way to conduct such activity rather than to exclude it.

    Policy 5 – As long as the intent is to find ways to maintain the existing activities.




    7.
    This not an ‘agree’ or ‘disagree’ type of question. I would have no problem with designating the whole forest as ‘Old Growth’ provided all my previous concerns were addressed. You simply need to do more homework on defining ‘Old Growth’ and spend a few more years in meeting the resulting criteria.

    8.
    Just a re-cap here.

    First, your definition of ‘Old Growth’ needs to be amended to include:

    A) Appropriate tree species diversity
    B) Appropriate tree age profile

    Selective, planned logging and re-planting needs to continue until these criteria are met or your forests will be at risk if left on their own. In other words, the patient needs to be healthy before they are released from the hospital.

    Second, your policies need to be amended to be more use inclusive rather than use exclusive. Find or create as many ways as possible that individuals can get out and enjoy these forests. If you do that, you will have much more support form a funding perspective to manage and build a healthy forest. The more exclusive you policies are, the less support you will get because fewer people will be able to realize any direct benefit from your efforts.

    9. & 10.
    Policy 1 – provided the definition and polices regarding ‘Old Growth’ were amended as previously suggested.

    Policy 4 – Provided that such an assessment is exercised to determine the best way to conduct such activity rather than to exclude it.

    Policy 5 – Again, as long as the intent is to find ways to maintain the existing activities.

    13.
    You need to allow for comments on all of your questions. For 11 and 12, these activities are essential and should be allowed, however you really need to come up with solid goals and policies regarding how to conduct these activities. For instance, recreational activities are a must as I’ve stated before. However, I would be more for natural surface trails on hard ground rather than limestone or tarmac trails. Also, you need to have different goals of silviculture within ANSI and proposed ‘Old Growth’ areas. For instance, if the area is large enough to sustain a truly natural ecology, then the goal of silviculture must be to attain the right species diversity and age profile. Once that is obtained the silviculture could be curtailed and only used for minor corrective measures.

    14. & 15.
    Policy 1 – provided the definition and polices regarding ‘Old Growth’ were amended as previously suggested.

    Policy 4 – Provided that such an assessment is exercised to determine the best way to conduct such activity rather than to exclude it.

    Policy 5 – Again, as long as the intent is to find ways to maintain the existing activities.

    17.
    For question 16, again, you really need to come up with solid goals and policies regarding how to conduct these activities. For instance, you need to have different goals of silviculture within significant wetland areas. For instance, if the area is large enough to sustain a truly natural ecology, then the goal of silviculture must be to attain the right species diversity and age profile. Once that is obtained the silviculture could be curtailed and only used for minor corrective measures.

    18. & 19.
    This is a little confusing. On the one hand you are suggesting setting aside areas for ‘Old Growth’ where you will let nature take it’s course and then on the other hand you’re planning to sustain grasslands even though you know they are not ecologically stable. Grasslands are a natural, random and generally short-lived phenomenon within a healthy forest ecology and will occur when conditions are right. They will just as randomly disappear too. Anyway, I am okay with most of these policies and have no problem with them, but if your going to suggest maintaining unnatural conditions in one part of the forest to keep the chirpy birdies around, then you need to reconsider the whole ‘Old Growth’ thing. Again, I want to stress that I have no issue with environmental assessments as long as the intent is to find ways to include new activities and maintain the existing activities.

    23.
    You might consider letting them happen on their own accord, but I'm okay either way.

    24.
    One thing needs to be kept in mind here. The chances of Limerick Forest, or any parts of it returning to their original ‘Old Growth’ state are next to nil. No forest has ever returned to its true old-growth condition in recorded history. Best estimates for this in boreal forests are about 2000 years. Carolinian would take more like 4000. Some cannot ever return, as the conditions that created them no longer exist. Witness the Middle East whose lush hardwood forests were destroyed between 4000 and 2500 years ago. Witness also the Amazon basin and other areas in South America and Africa. These forests cannot ever return given current climatic conditions. We’ll need another ice age.

    The best you can do here is managing the forest as a recreational area. The key would be to do it in such a way as to maximize support for doing it. The best way to do that is to make the forest as accessible as possible to as many different interests as possible. The more people that derive a benefit from the forest, the more support you will get. Spend your effort on finding ways to encourage and nurture sustainable activity rather than excluding it. This is how the Limerick Forest will become successful, not by shutting people out.
  7. gybeman

    gybeman Limited User

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    Right on Bill !
  8. BillO

    BillO Limited User

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    Thanks Mike, just trying to prove my youth wasn't totally misspent.

    Anyway, for Ken or anyone else planning to attend the meetings or be a part of the process it might be good to do a little research. Here are some links that might prove handy. Most of these are representative of real environmental science.

    Here’s an interesting one.
    http://www.championtrees.org/oldgrowth/OGCriteria.htm Although these guys (TERRA - The Earth Restoration and Reforestation Alliance) were always seen as Greenie Weenies in the past, they seem to be adopting a little sense and reality. Here is their definition of ‘Old Growth’ and it’s not a bad one. As far as I can see, it is lacking only the requirement of healthy species diversity. From what I can tell about Limerick, they have a long way to go before they reach this point. Take note of the last requirement and the note that follows it. Certainly then, a low-density system of natural surface, single-track trails will have essentially no impact. Again, it needs to be stressed that these sorts of trails have existed forever in forests. They are indeed a part of nature. BTW the author, David Yarrow, is a messiah for the Greenie Weenies. He’s no fool and if you can find anything of his that supports your argument, it’s gold.

    This site directly approaches the whole discussion of diversity in a healthy forest.
    http://home.klis.com/~chebogue/p.conDiv.html
    Again, this is produced by extreme naturalists, or wildcrafters. These are folks that want to live in harmony with nature. Limerick Forest is currently very limited in its species diversity. They must continue silviculture until they regain a healthy mix of tree species and ages. In fact, that was once predominantly a hardwood forest and is now pine and spruce. They have a long way to go.

    Here is an excellent page on biodiversity and sustainable use of forests. This is the site for the United Nations Convention on Biological Diversity. http://www.biodiv.org/programmes/areas/forest/cs.aspx
    Read the third paragraph down. Good stuff.

    There’s tons of this stuff out there, and even more if you want to wade through the scientific papers. It should not be difficult to demonstrate that their ideas on ‘Old Growth’ are not sound.
  9. RL

    RL Limited User

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    Well said Bill
    Lots of knowledge there.

    I really hate to think that these Greenie weenie's are able to lock up a forest and think all will be good. If it takes 2-4000 years to return a forest to its mature self then a 100 years is hardly a start.

    Also the idea of a mature old growth forest does not inspire me much at all. It may be nice to have all these big mature hardwoods but there will be very little understory growth as the light will not be sufficient to support this growth. Just look under/around a mature 100-200yr old Maple or Oak.
    Single track trail is so much nicer in a 50-100year forest that is also log on a regular basis. Its nice to have the saplings there as it better controls where the trail goes and keeps people on it....less short cutting more turns and maintains a sense of closure when the leaves are out.
    Nothing better than single track in a Mature managed hardwood forest with a mix of young and old trees florishing. :D