1. A $20 ODSC-ADV membership is now available as an alternative to the standard $65 ODSC-OFTR membership, details via the JOIN button
  1. Canadaler

    Canadaler ODSC-OFTR Member

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    A quick synopsis for those of you just joining us... :D

    Recently a post was started in the Competitive Riding Events forum which was questioning why race turn out was so low. It generated lots of hits, lots of comments and the discussion led to bigger overall issues and questions like:

    -why does there seem to be a lower number of racers in Ontario compared to other provinces and regions (like Quebec, BC and Albera)
    -why don't we get more spectators out to events?
    -where are the new riders going to come from considering the loss of areas to ride?
    -how do we protect the areas we now have available to ride, try to reclaim some we've lost and develop new lands?
    -is there a "big tent" type of arrangement we could strike, not just between different motorcycle race sanctioning groups and clubs, but one which goes outside our "normal" circle to include other trail users, land owners and environmental groups
    -is this a worthy cause to pursue?...and if so...what would it look like and how would we get it moving?

    Please continue on with that discussion in this thread...even though the "Gerry Springer" potential is much less here for those strictly seeking entertainment value... :D

    Here's a link to the previous thread:

    http://www.odsc.on.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17114

    Yes...I understand that the above issues are still related to the Competition side of things, since the questions were originally generated from event entries...and no doubt there are specific race event issues that are valid and needed topics to discuss. Feel free to start new post(s) in the Competition forum to discuss them...(maybe things like scoring systems, Saturday vs Sunday events, course layout....tons of things.)

    I hope that people will use this thread to focus on the bigger overall picture and encourage people to put in their 2 cents...especially from those who don't post that often, "newbies" to the sport, people interested in the sport...and even us old broken down racers relegated to trail riding... :eek:
  2. Neil Edmunds

    Neil Edmunds ODSC Executive

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    The need for a larger rider base is very evident. One thing I liked, was when the OFTR had their trailer at the Sportsman's Show. A great way for other users to see an additional outdoor activity. Maybe doing the same thing at an agricultural (or other) show would help.

    Something else to ponder: Why not start young? Give your kid a nice new knobby tire when he/she needs something for "show and tell" at school. Get those little minds thinking. The sharp edges on a new knobby still makes my pulse spike.

    OK, back to the serious discussion.

    EDIT: I will be giving the OFTR extra money when I join. The legal fund is important.
  3. BillO

    BillO Limited User

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    From last thread...
    Steve, I don't think anyone here is not pro-OFTR. I certainly am a big supporter of the OFTR and I think what we are discussing certainly is pro-OFTR also. From the feedback I've gotten so far (here, via PM and by phone) it seems that there is no way to increase the number of racers without an increase in the number of off-road riders. Especially in areas that do not have good riding opportunities. Like the larger traditional farming centres. This idea Rob presents would help create these riding areas and this would not be possible without real land use agreements and TPLI. This is where the OFTR comes in. They also reap the benefits too. Since the agreement and TPIL will be through the OFTR, people that want to ride these areas will have to be OFTR members. OFTR support will be a natural outcome. The racers and race fans will come later. No one is saying the OFTR has to do all the work, but it cannot easily happened without them and they will benefit from it.
  4. creeksideMX

    creeksideMX Limited User

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    Thanks Ron, great moderation again. =D> and thanks to whoever turned on my emoticons. \:D/

    Just to be clear, I too am an OFTR member and a Lynn Valley Dirt Rider, I proactively support our sport in political ways as well as by creating riding areas and racing (which supports the clubs) but I actually don't see the benefit of waving flags or wearing colours. I'm a rider, just like anyone that throughs a leg over a dirt bike. From the 4 year olds with training wheels to the Wojo's and Cockayne's from the Dual Sport klr rider to the clapped out 125 mx rider we're all in this together. My hope is we can look further than any memberships at this point, instead of having memberships first, lets have riding areas first.

    Ok now that I've set the record straight from a personal standpoint I think I should clear up the area surrounding my suggestion.

    A brief history, I am a farm owner, its a horse farm and therefore has pasture land and also has some woodlands. I created a small riding area for my friends and I to ride. Shortly after, the township was at my door waving the bylaws.

    As a member of OFA I receive a newsletter that informs farmers of issues that farmers are facing and some of the solutions that are available. Many farmers are struggling to produce an adequate income from their land, I have off farm income but many don't. One of the articles discussed in the newsletter spoke of alternative income sources and discussed hunters and OFSC as possible income source. (I'm not sure that hunters or OFSC would be happy to hear that though) Anyway at some point farmers will need to create alternative income sources, I propose we consider assisting farmers with reforesting land that they aren't able to use in order to create multiple sources of income for them. The possibilities are numerous, maple syrup, log harvest, hunter, dirtbikers, Atv's Snowmobiles etc. But there are some hurdles to overcome.
  5. SteveP

    SteveP Ride Organizer

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    Now it looks as though we may have some fruitful discussion. My reason for taking the pro oftr stance vehemently was simply to point out that which may be obvious to some and not to others. Become cohesion in the eyes of the opposition, ie strength in numbers. If we can "prove up" our numbers, we might be taken more serious by all stakeholders, opponents, friendly's and unfriendly's. That doesn't mean it's to be defacto the OFTR that represents us, but it's what we have now. I've said my bit regarding the oftr.

    I gotta say the reforestation angle is brilliant Rob. From an enviro standpoint, to value creation, to sustainability and public recognition. I bet there is a way to tie in the reforestation cost(the sapling) via charitable donation from corporations. I can add more on that later, as I paid my way though university tree planting in northern ontario for four years. Great idea!
  6. creeksideMX

    creeksideMX Limited User

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    Thanks Steve, there are programs offered by the government, for reforestation, but I'm all for bringing more people / corporations into the mix.

    Can you imagine the government paying for trees for us to plant for future riding areas. [-o<
  7. SteveP

    SteveP Ride Organizer

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    .....I wasn't going to add that I also worked for the MNR for 10 seasons in the Ontario Ranger program..... 8-[I know that the gov't has some mandated reforestation requirements and can in many cases provide the stock. I remember when planting for private contractors some of our early season planting contracts was on farm land in southern ontario(the north was still frozen). I digress. Love this idea.
  8. millicat

    millicat Ride Organizer

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    Hi everyone, been following this thread and the previous one with great interest, I firmly believe there is a role for the OFTR to play here, and it's great to see there's a lot of support behind Ken's tireless work up to this point, and in furthering the OFTR's mandate and initiatives with different ideas. This weekend is the annual President's Council Conference, this item will definitely be brought up for discussion, keep the good ideas coming, excited to see what all of our brains working towards the same common goals can accomplish for our sport!

    If there are items you'd like to have us discuss specifically at the PCC, feel free to post them up here, try to be as concise in describing your idea, also feel free to PM me here, or to email me at dave@oftr.ca.

    Look forward to seeing people from the various clubs this weekend, we're going to have a great time, sounds like it's going to be incredibly productive, especially if we can bring some of the enthusiasm we've started to tap into from this thread!!!

    Dave Millier
    President, OFTR
  9. creeksideMX

    creeksideMX Limited User

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    Thats great Dave, I look forward to hearing what direction OFTR is going for 2011, and how we can help.
  10. BillO

    BillO Limited User

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    Is it too early to have expected others to respond and provide some imput on this?

    According to Kenny H. there about 6,000 dirt bikes sold each year. Doing a back of the envelope calculation, if we assume that a bike will last an average of 6.5 years, and taking into account some folks like vintage bikes, there should be more than 40,000 active bikes out there. I’m not sure of the average number of bikes per rider, but if we assume around 1.5, that gives us about 27,000 riders.

    The OFTR has less than 2000 members.

    So what does this tell us? 27K riders is a lot, it could be more, but that it’s a good base.

    Some points to ponder.

    · Why are less than 2000 members of the OFTR?
    · Are there 25,000 hardcore MX’ers?
    · Why can we not get more to join the OFTR? Cost?
    · Is it because the average dirt bike rider would not join a club that would have them as a member? (AKA - we privately agree with those that hate us)
    · Are the rest not aware of the issues?
    · Not enough riding access so people do not ride much?
    · Too much riding access so people don’t need the help?
    · Total apathy caused by over work or too many interesting things to do?
    · There is some unidentified chemical in the drinking water that affects us?


    Folks, we need your input on this.
  11. Canadaler

    Canadaler ODSC-OFTR Member

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    I really wish we could find a way that every single one of those bikes sold automatically came with an OFTR membership.

    It would boost our numbers to a more credible level, provide additional funding and (most importantly) start disseminating information to a much wider audience.

    I know this idea has been tossed around before...but (if I remember correctly) there was a problem trying to sort out how to execute it between manufacturers and dealers.
  12. BillO

    BillO Limited User

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    Yeah, that yould be great. Maybe we could get the dealers to help do it by offering them a slice of the pie. (just example figures here folks) $30 for every membership they sell along with a 'point' in promo value. X number or promo points and OFTR mentions your name. 2X and you get on their web-site. 3X and you get on the trailer. 4X and the OFTR will put your sales flyer in their membership renewal. Something like that. $50 to the OFTR is better than nothing, especially as it gets folks in the door. We need to create a solid value proposition for the dealers. That would help.
  13. OrangeKoolaid

    OrangeKoolaid Ride Organizer

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    Wow wow wow slow down here a little, there has got to be a better way to get the dealers on board rather than by paying them a portion of the membership monies. If $50 is going to the OFTR how much of that $50 would go to the local club? The local clubs needs their share of the monies to do work in their specific area.

    I would hope that the dealers would want to come on board so that the customer would have a legal place to ride their newly purchased bike, no place to ride equals no reason to buy a bike. Kinda a win win for the dealer to suggest to the purchaser that they become OFTR Members.

    There was the OFTR New Bike handle bar hangers that were to go out to the dealers is that program still active? Dave or Kenny can you anwser that?
  14. Canadaler

    Canadaler ODSC-OFTR Member

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    I was thinking that perhaps we need to "force" this issue a bit.

    Get an agreement with manufacturers/dealers that every bike sold (specific models that is, MX, trail, mini, Dual Sport) automatically have a "built in" surcharge (like shipping/PDI) that is your full OFTR membership...automatically. That gets forwarded to the OFTR, no kick-backs. What's in it for them? Presumably the ability to sell more machines if there are more places to ride them. The cost of that can either be hidden or listed on the receipt as a separate line item. Yes...some people will squawk about it...and probably will not renew the following year. Some will though and as long as dealers keep selling bikes, membership numbers would stay elevated via new buyers.

    I also like the stewardship model where if you want to ride in certain areas you need OFTR membership, like sledders need membership to ride snowmobile trails.

    Perhaps even tie membership into the Green Plate system.

    May all sound a bit "heavy handed"...but we need to look at more options here.
  15. BillO

    BillO Limited User

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    Don, I said example figures.

    I'm not sure why, but it's getting increasingly difficult to say anything on the internet these days without someone getting upset. #-o It seems as though people only read what they want into what is written.

    The handle bar hanger program is still there. I imagine it is somewhat effective. Do we know how effective? How many people join the OFTR or local club guided by that source? I won't speculate out loud as I'm sure someone will get mad at me.

    Expecting dealers to actually sell OFTR/club memberships on the expectation that it will eventually result in increased sales is, in my opinion, extremely optimistic. Most sales managers cannot see past the end of the current month, let alone years down the line and based on a complex chain of events. They expect their sales people to put their effort into creating revenue now. Believe me, I know something about this.

    I don’t know what the split would be, or even if the buyer has a local club that he can join or not. All I know is that business are not know for acting out of the goodness of their hearts. Yes, some do, but most do not. Plus, If they are going to help, just like the clubs and the OFTR, they deserve a cut.

    Keep in mind, this is only on the initial sale. Renewals will be either directly through the OFTR or through the local club. The point is if it increases overall revenues and membership, then it is a no-brainer. Just ask any successful organization, it helps to have a sales force.
  16. suprf1y

    suprf1y Limited User

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    Nothing will make people hate your organization more than forcing them to pay for it.
    Bad idea.
  17. suprf1y

    suprf1y Limited User

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    I don't think mx'ers know, or care about the OFTR.
    As much as people cry about no place to ride, I have my choice of a dozen mx tracks to ride at regularly, and only ride a few. For mx guys, there is no shortage of places to ride.
    I also own a dual sport bike, and can't think of a reason why I should join OFTR (I don't mean that in a negative way)
  18. Canadaler

    Canadaler ODSC-OFTR Member

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    How do you explain the OFSC then? With almost 1/4 of a million members..."forced" to buy their memberships (at more than $200 a pop) to ride OFSC trails?

    I was thinking more that the OFTR membership...would be like getting "On Star" or "XM Radio" in your new car for "free" when you bought it...then you choose to subscribe to continue after an initial period expires. Nobody says "I'm not buying the car because I don't want the "free" XM Radio trial.

    This would have to be applied at the distributor level, so the dealer didn't have to do anything but send in the new owner's name and contact information. They have to do this on the bill of sale anyhow.

    I agree Bill, I can't see this working on a dealer-by-dealer basis. Too many issues, to much hassle for dealers.

    IF the above "On Star" type of deal worked...it would provide much needed funds to turn around and provide more services (eg. more OFTR membership required trails) it could get us out of this "chicken and the egg" situation. "I don't want an OFTR membership because I don't see what I get out of it....we can't provide members with more value because we don't have enough memberships to generate funds."
  19. BillO

    BillO Limited User

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    Thank you Suprf1y, this is real input and I really appreciate it.

    Would you entertain a few questions?

    Do the trail rides that the OFTR brings to the riding community not interest you? Many of them a DS friendly.

    Also, what would interest you? What could the OFTR offer you that would get you aboard? Do you come out to any fo the off-road races?

    Hard core MX'ers would not be interested in trail access, but some of those going out to the MX tracks might be. That aside, I don't think there are 25,000 MX riders in Ontario. There are a huge number of riders out there that we aren't reaching.
  20. suprf1y

    suprf1y Limited User

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    I don't explain OFSC.

    I own a sled, and am not an OFSC member.
    If I buy a new sled to ride on my property, and lakes, am I forced to buy a membership?

    I am forced to buy a SCR membership if I want to ride their property, but it's my choice to do so.