1. ODSC rides are planned with specific Covid-19 restrictions

Thread locked?!!

Discussion in 'The Soapbox' started by Beaker, Jun 6, 2015.

  1. Beaker

    Beaker Limited User

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    WTF? http://www.odsc.on.ca/.xenforo/index.php?threads/riding-near-guelph.21536/page-7#post-142363

    Really? I guess it hasn't occurred to you guys that maybe you'd have a larger membership, and wouldn't have the slowest moving forum on the internet, if you'd drop this childish "members only", clubhouse attitude. I've been on and off this board since the '90's and have been a paying member on occasion but this is ridiculous. What's the big harm in people organizing rides? Maybe it would get them interested enough to attend one of the rides with the "special" people... Your current attitude won't foster that, quite the contrary. Then again, it is in line with you warring with the ATV riders rather than joining forces and working towards a common goal of preserving and developing riding areas. Oh well... End rant. Happy trails.
  2. michel mondou

    michel mondou ODSC President

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    The ODSC is not a rich club, our budget is very modest and we operate on very limited resources. We only ask $10 to join, which gives the benefit of full web site access, club liability insurance as well as couple of rides only available to members. I feel the admission price is very reasonable. This club is the way many riders enter the world of Dual Sport, trail riding, enduro's, trials, etc. Our forum is the resource many newbies get countless tech questions answered, meet like minded riders, etc.

    While $10 is not much to ask for -in a world where people spend thousands on bikes, gear and bling- The club execs feel we should reward our members with some benefits, such as full forum access; to encourage non-members to join. A discussion was held a few years ago where we asked if limited users should have a "best before date" and get kicked off the forum; that would have been very hard to enforce & administrate. So instead, the execs of the time decided to limit forum access to non-members, to encourage people to join.

    There are also insurance liability issues with non-members using our forum to organise rides. Our members are covered by club insurance when riding on "organised rides" and also impromptu rides. While this is a benefit to the membership, it becomes a grey area when non-members are going through us to put rides together.

    Hope you understand and Happy Trails!

    Michel
    ODSC President
  3. ThatGuyDuncan

    ThatGuyDuncan ODSC-OFTR Member

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    In my experience, the lock-out is hard to not take personally. After the thread has started and gathered responses, it's not a matter of "preventing" but rather of "taking away". A higher-quality solution would prevent "limited" users from starting threads in "members" areas. A lesser-quality solution should involve a better explanation in the post. A cut & paste affair would suffice.

    $10 annually is beyond reasonable. Have you ever thought to ask the membership what they're willing to pay? I'm not opposed to paying $20/year if, for example, it gains me access to garage and tools and knowledge.

    Most "niche" organisations cycle between inclusivity vs exclusivity, yet the necessity of inclusivity for health and prosperity is constant. How can we convert limited users to members? Can we make a one-week membership available for a dollar? It can't be just about the money though, $10 is nothing. Has a lawyer ever stated that ODSC is liable for casual rides organized through these boards? Aren't all of us required to hold insurance already?

    In the interests of inclusivity and liability, *I* will pay Beaker's membership for 2015. Next year he'll know how awesome we are and he'll happily keep it going.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
  4. Beaker

    Beaker Limited User

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    Thanks Duncan, but I've renewed my OFTR membership and paid my $10 club membership to ODSC. I agree with your points and also that there is no way that ODSC could or would be held liable for a casual ride arranged by parties posting on the forum. The whole exclusivity just seems silly to me. No big deal.
    ThatGuyDuncan likes this.
  5. Neil Edmunds

    Neil Edmunds ODSC Executive

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    Beaker,
    Thank you for renewing and adding the $10.00 for the ODSC. It is appreciated. Please note that the OFTR membership form does not have a spot to add forum usernames, so it is difficult to match usernames to the person who has joined. Send me a PM or email odscadmin@gmail.com to let me know who you are. Notifications from the OFTR can be delayed if they are busy, so it can take a while before I know. There are numerous ODSC members who do not have time to spend on forums and thus have not registered. They probably just come on as guests once in a while. Anyone who has joined and does not see their username status change within a week should contact me.
    Neil
    ThatGuyDuncan likes this.
  6. Beaker

    Beaker Limited User

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  7. Woodzi

    Woodzi Limited User

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    I don't think it is fair to criticize this rule. As Michel explained, it is a grey area legally and I don't think the club directors want to put it to the test.

    Our politicians and lawyers are making it more and more difficult to do anything - thank them.
  8. Beaker

    Beaker Limited User

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    Really? With the U.S. being much more litigious than Canada, I would guess that ADVRIDER.COM is sued daily and the government is on the brink of shutting it down. The liability excuse is nothing more than an excuse. Weak.
  9. suprf1y

    suprf1y Limited User

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  10. moosehead

    moosehead Limited User

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    This is a club that needs to get themselves current. You offer me nothing to become a member . What you do offer me , I can do for free on other forums . I'm riding every weekend with guys that think the same thing. This forum has the reputation of a bunch of old guys, stuck in the past, unwilling to change their ways to accommodate a newer, younger generation of riders . It is pathetic, petty, and doing nothing to grow the sport. The brain trust of this site better wake up, and get real, before you go the way of the dodo. Seriously, you wonder why every other offroad user has more access than us?? Alienating potential voices is a big reason .
    suprf1y and Beaker like this.
  11. 3BeeJay3

    3BeeJay3 ODSC Past President

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    I'm going to suggest that maybe the only thing you haven't been offered is clear communication of what you do actually get from joining a club like this one (or any other OFTR Club)
    We used to have a sticky post that listed all the benefits of being a member but it seems to have gone missing. That should be addressed.

    First let me explain why that particular thread was locked.
    This club or any other club has to spend a lot of money on insurance every year. That insurance only covers members for club sponsored activities. During those club sponsored activities nonmembers are covered for that specific event.
    We are not insured when nonmembers try to set up rides using this forum. Our insurance doesn't cover that. Hence the rule against it. It's also a problem when nonmembers are promoting riding in areas that are not legal. Both of these situations puts a club in a legal liability position. The volunteers that put the work in to keeping a site like this up and running have an obligation to close down any thread activity that could put the club in a legal liability situation. I understand that someone from the outside might get upset because they had a thread shut down and may feel that they are getting picked on. However, it's just not the case, and it's nothing personal. I'm sure the club would happily provide the contact info of our insurer to anyone that is unhappy about this policy. I'm sure the ODSC would welcome it if you could change the mind of the insurer.

    Keep in mind this club did get sued in 2013. That lawsuit was very frivolous and is still not finished up yet. It has put the board through a lot of ridiculous and unnecessary nonsense. It bears repeating that all the people that operate this site are volunteers. They don't get paid. I'm sure none of them want to go thru another lawsuit. I also think it's fair to say that anyone else would feel the same. If anyone has a better way to operate the site, I'm sure any of those volunteers would be happy to hand their duties over to that person.
    It's easy to be critical if you don't have the whole story, but I'm sure if you trade shoes you'd act the same way as the folks that run this site.

    That all being said, let's talk about what the benefits are of being a member;
    As an ODSC member, you automatically also become an OFTR member. With that you get access to thousands of kilometres of trails that you don't have access to otherwise. These trails are in Simcoe County, the Five points area near Kinmount(KATVA trail network), Northumberland County, Somerville Forest, Limerick and LaRose forests. The OFTR is currently adding more areas to that inventory.

    Many clubs offer OFTR members discounts to their organized events. ODSC members get discounts to ODSC events. They also get access to one or two events a year that nonmembers have no access to.
    There are also many hidden benefits; as an OFTR member you get the benefit from the lobbying that is done on your behalf by the OFTR, the Ontario Powersports Working Group, MCC, MMIC and COHV.
    More has happened in the last two years on this front than in the previous 20 years combined.
    These are just a few things off the top of my head & there are many more such as sponsor discounts etc.

    None of these things can be obtained from other forums, except SCORRA and BMA forums.

    Motorcycles actually now have more access than other types of vehicles in many areas. They have way more trails than other vehicles in Simcoe County, the Ganaraska Forest, Northumberland, Somerville, LaRose, Limerick, among other areas.

    One more thing - how valuable is your voice if you're not actually a member of a recognized group and if you're riding in areas where you're not supposed to be? Food for thought...
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
    Ken Hynes likes this.
  12. Ken Hynes

    Ken Hynes Limited User

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    Now that is well said, join today! Show your support to the club and the members. Come out on Casual Ride and I will give you a tour of the Ganny.
  13. Beaker

    Beaker Limited User

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    Nope. There is absolutely no way that the ODSC or its insurer would be liable if a non-member, or member, made a post looking for riding partners and something happened to those individuals, a third party, or property. Can't happen. If something does happen to me, or my bike, when I'm out riding should I put the claim through ODSC's insurance? If I break any Highway Traffic Act or Trespass to Property Act statutes should I tell the officer to write the ticket to the OFTR or the ODSC? Also, the ODSC membership doesn't get one an OFTR membership; when you purchase an OFTR membership tou have to pick a club and pay an additional fee ($10 for ODSC). There are several clubs to chose from... The "only members can post in casual rides" rule is simply a ploy to get people to join and pay for membership. Period. No other way to sell it.
  14. 3BeeJay3

    3BeeJay3 ODSC Past President

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    Umm, I hate to break it to you, but yes the club can absolutely get sued. Liability isn't necessarily the issue. For ex. A lawsuit can be filed by someone with private property that people are tresspassing on. They can sue the owners of an online forum where people are discussing and recommending it. It doesn't mean the plaintiff will win the suit, but once it's filed the defendant still has to respond and then file a defence. It's expensive, time consuming and a PITA. I've been thru it via this club. Have you? I doubt it.
    Frivolous lawsuits get filed all the time. It often has nothing to do with liability. However, any organization has to demonstrate to their insurer they are taking steps to avoid these issues.
    We've had to file a claim with our insurer once for a suit, the club isn't inclined to do so again.

    I don't know what your name is, but I'm pretty sure you weren't on the board when these rules were created. With all due respect, that means you don't get to say what the reasons were for their creation. I was there, you weren't.
    If you are an ODSC member, you are an OFTR member. Period. You can just choose ODSC, or you may join the ODSC in addition to being a member of another club as well. Either way, you still have OFTR. Why make an issue out of nothing?

    I'm always curious as to why some folks feel they should get access to a service for free when the service actually costs money to provide and the cost to that person is actually quite minimal.....

    If you know better, I suggest stepping up. Just sayin......

    PS. the club doesn't actually make any money on memberships. The $10 we get pays for insurance and the costs to support each member (website etc). The club is probably losing a dollar or two, or more per member nowadays. The rest is made up from sponsorships, events, etc
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
  15. Brian Helliwell

    Brian Helliwell ODSC Executive

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    Just curious as to what you and the others that don't like the way the ODSC operates would like to see different. Or how you would grow the sport and preserve legal places to ride. How would you generate revenue for these activities? Also perhaps you could give us your age, riding experience, knowledge of the sport, etc as a bit of background . Otherwise I'd just guess your in the newer, younger generation of riders. And I'd might guess your probably riding some clapped out motocrosser illegally around in gravel pits. Please tell me I'm wrong on that one lol! As 3Beejay3 mentioned there are a lot of reasons why the club has evolved to the way it is now. But it certainly is open to changing and growing. YOU just have to get involved. How many hours a week are you free to grow the sport?

    Brian
  16. Ken Hynes

    Ken Hynes Limited User

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    You are wrong, it happens every day. As an Adjuster I have spent not thousands but millions of dollars defending frivilous lawsuits. It is a fact of life. The rule exists for a valid reason.

    So, the 1000s of hours volunteers have spent past, present and future to protect and maintain the scraps of land we have to ride on mean nothing to you. The scant few bucks we pay go into protecting and maintaining riding area, end of story. Club and Casual rides are a perk we enjoy when members volunteer their personal time and resources. It is a club, that means you join up to enjoy the benefits.
  17. 2006KLX250S

    2006KLX250S Limited User

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    Can you tell me about these areas I get to ride in if I pay for a membership? What kind of terrain is it, difficulty level, what city?
  18. Beaker

    Beaker Limited User

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  19. moosehead

    moosehead Limited User

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    Thank you beejay for explaining some things, perhaps I should explain myself more clearly as well. I understand why the thread was locked. It violates a club policy, and rightly or wrongly, that is the way it is. I do find it hard to believe that other forums leave themselves open to this type of litigation you speak of. But I'm no lawyer, or insurance adjuster, so I'll leave that alone for now. My big issue is the bull crap attitudes of some members of this site. They paint a bad picture, and push people away. There was a thread a while back, where a member was looking for someone to go ATV'ing with, and got crapped on for asking. I spoke my mind in that thread as well. And now in this thread, right on que, I've been accused of riding a clapped out motocrosser, and playing in illegal locations, in the Brian Helliwell post. I'm 38 years old, a father of 2, and I ride a KLX250. I'm not sure what clapped out means, so I can't answer that. I'm not some punk ass kid, who's going to take your crap for any reason. The places I ride are either private, pay to play, or I've been giving permission in some way, shape, or form. I've ridden with payed, and non-paying members, and have had good vibes from everyone. But I'll tell you what, there are some high ranking members on here, who are, from what I can tell, not very well liked by some of the newer members because of their rudeness, and general un-acceptance. We've talked about it at length on a ride or 2. This is the stuff that makes me want to stay away, and the reason I haven't ponied up 10 bones.

    Just food for thought. I certainly don't want to have a cyber fight. I just like to ride, and am looking for like minded peeps.
    2006KLX250S and Beaker like this.
  20. 3BeeJay3

    3BeeJay3 ODSC Past President

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    I don't believe Brian H. accused you of riding a clapped out bike. He mentioned that it appeared you could be someone like that based upon what you've posted before. Big difference. I would have been inclined to jump to a similar conclusion.
    We're all like minded here more or less. Many newer people misread or misinterpret things that are posted - especially if they don't know the person & react the wrong way, then complain about it with their buddies. I've seen it happen a bunch of times before, so this is nothing new.
    I haven't seen much rudeness here lately, so I'm not sure where people have been interpreting that from, or why.
    The thing is, all of the guys on the executive board here have been involved with actually building the sport in one way or another. Many of them have been around a while and know what helps us and what hurts us. New guys riding in improper areas doesn't usually help us. It sometimes sets us back. Perhaps think about it from that viewpoint....
    The intent isn't unacceptance, but rather trying to manage issues and educate/ communicate with folks.
    Complaining about things not being the way we want them doesn't fix them. Getting involved in a positive, productive way does.